(There may be a little misattribution of comments in this section – sorry – Ed!)

Date: Wed, 27 May 1998
From: Rex Aschenbrenner <aschenbr@cgi.com>
Subject: Re: G Chanters
I too am considering a G set and would like to hear what others have to say; please keep this thread on the list. I am most interested in Dave Shaw's pipes so far, based mainly on the opinions of other pipers. His wait is 12-14 months at the moment, but at least there is an end in sight. Sadly, the wait seems to rule out Colin Ross and Ray Sloan at the moment. I don't know much about Phil Gruar, or other makers.

And then someone said:
I'm wondering the same. I have Heriot & Allan pipes in D that play and sound wonderful. I expect that their G pipes are similar in quality, but I don't know of anyone who plays them
I know that Dave Shaw and Ray Sloan use an angled cut on the open holes to avoid crowded fingers. I recently compared a Sloan G chanter to my F chanter. The spacing on the holes was nearly identical for the left hand and a little tighter for the right hand. There may also be other makers may do the same thing.
I think there are some other issues, at least with Dave Shaw's pipes. How well will an instrument designed to play in loud sessions be able to adapt to other settings, like an unamplified duet with a fiddle or guitar? Any experience here?

From: Helen Cook <hcook@taranaki.ac.nz>
Subject: RE: G Chanters
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998
I think to recommend a particular pipe maker over a public mailing is sticking out my neck too far!!! Having said that, I am not known for my caution or tact so here is my pennyworth!
My Ray Sloan G chanter is LOVELY. I have a definite preference for the work of Colin or Ray. Colin's is really difficult to get (I noticed the dream on) and Ray's can be a bit of a wait. Having said that Ray is claiming to have cut his waiting list to about a year.
I once owned a Dave Shaw D set and was not 100% happy with it. I think his work is quite idiosyncratic and you either like it or not
The only answer is to hear as many of the G chanters around as you can. Listen for the sound you want. If the owners are happy to let you touch their precious chanters, try the fingering. Then have a look at the finish. Are the key slots lined? Are the keys arranged as you want them? Then ask people what the follow-up has been like if they had any Problems.
The last thing I would look at is the waiting list or the price. In years to come they will be forgotten and irrelevant while you are still living with your chanter.

From: J M Say
Subject: RE: G Chanters
I assume that Ray that would not specifically advertise that his waiting list is one year unless this was actually the case. He seems to vary the style of his keys quite a bit from set to set. It *could* be, that ordering a set from Ray on the basis of inspection of one example, *might* lead to disappointment if there was a style change - although I guess you could order 'one like -whoever-'s got'.

About 7 years ago, when I was hanging round the back of piping workshops, and trying to decide whether it was worth me trying to play something that apparently needed more than a reasonable number of useable fingers, I asked two competent pipers (neither on this list) for their advice about makers and pitches.
One said that Colin and Ray made the best pipes, but that if he had the choice again, he would get a G from Ray and an F from Colin.(One of the differences is the angled holes on G sets- Ray's are angled, Colin's are not)
The second person said that he would love to have a set of Ross pipes. He advised us to go and talk to Colin -and I quote "if he takes to you, he'll do anything for you, if not, you'll get nothing" - end quote.

Helen again:
> I once owned a Dave Shaw D set and was not 100% happy with it. I think his work is quite idiosyncratic and you either like it or not.

Julia again:
We have a Dave Shaw G set in the house at the moment. Two (only) of the holes are angled, it is of a very slim design, and the drone plungers are loose plugs attached to the drones with a chain (OK if you don’t mind dangly bits). The drone ferrules are completely plain - no decoration at all. Dave's bags are made of a substance that I only care to handle with tweezers - but I know that there are people who swear by them, so that is a matter of personal taste. It has a pleasant tone, and is not over loud (its quieter than the G chanter I use - although that’s in the reeding), but we have just discovered that several of the notes are out of tune.

Helen:
> Listen for the sound you want. If the owners are happy to let you touch their precious chanters, try the fingering. Then have a look at the finish. Then ask people what the follow-up has been like if they had any problems.

Julia:
The sound can vary a terrific amount just with different reeds - the G chanter I am using is deafening at the top end, which is very embarrassing in sessions when I don’t really know the tunes and am trying to learn them. But it goes down to bottom G, which is a wonderful shivery sort of noise, and gives access to some tunes I particularly like.

Helen:
> The last thing I would look at is the waiting list or the price. In years to come they will be forgotten and irrelevant while you are still living with your chanter.

Julia:
And the longer the waiting list, the longer you have to save up for what looks like a telephone number when you first decide you must have one.

From: rjs@MBR.centra.ca (Richard Shuttleworth)
Subject: RE: G Chanters
HEAR HEAR!!!
Buying a "G" chanter is a once in a lifetime affair, you want to be happy with it and you expect it to give you pleasure for years to come.
That sort of satisfaction doesn't come through price cutting or quick delivery - go for the best.

From: Rosspipes@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 May 1998
It is nice to know that I can pluck a figure out of the air when it comes to pricing my pipes. Or that alternatively I can price on an ongoing monthly basis so that the pipes that are on order longest are the most expensive. I wish!!!!
In the end I suppose it gets down to what people are prepared to pay irrespective of how long it has taken to make the object, and the artist or craftsman who knows his worth can demand whatever fee he likes( or puts up his rate per hour)
Absolutely in the end it depends on how much the customer is prepared to pay even if the maker thinks he is worth more. Ego can come before a fall in the end!
Do any of the other pipemakers have any opinions on this?

Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998
From: Alan & Susan Keith <keiths@innetix.com>
Subject: Re: pricing those pipes
The law of supply and demand, the means of manufacturing (technology and scale), the cost of materials, as well as the financial needs of the craftsman, pretty much dictate how much someone can charge (and get) for his/her product. I know that Colin's vast experience, superb workmanship, and subsequent deserved reputation in producing NSP’s and other pipes translates into a great demand for his instruments. It also doesn't hurt that NSPs have become increasingly popular over the years, and that some of this demand has been met by others, creating a relatively inferior product. As a result of this, his waiting list is long and his prices are substantial, as the market dictates they should be.
I think that as Colin correctly surmises, there is a limit as to how much a customer is willing to pay. Consumers do seem to have a sense of what's reasonable and what's not. If it's a non-necessity item, an outlandish price will be rejected by the vast majority.
I do believe there will always be a demand for high-quality individually crafted musical instruments. The fact that there is a huge supply of cheap mass-produced guitars for example, doesn't mean that the demand by a discriminating few for a superb playing/sounding hand-built instrument will diminish. As long as the supply of these desireable products is naturally (or artifically) kept low, while the demand remains high, the makers can charge what ever they think they can get.

Barry Say wrote:
"We have a local organisation called Folkworks who organise tuition days/weekends for various instruments. As well as working on your own instrument, you also spend time in a mixed-instrument band/group situation. Although these are called bands, they can end up more like mini-orchestras. Usually they involve 4 fiddles, 5 whistles 3 accordions etc. etc.
In one of these massed cacophonies was a lone piper with her Ross G chanter. We recorded the performance from front of house, and sailing over the top of all was the unmistakeable sound of NSP. Not loud – but definitely audible.
It needs a clear bright chanter with a performance reed and a confident player. The soft woody tones (which some consider to be the traditional sound of the NSP) are a non-starter in this situation."
I think that this is the other side of the "Good G chanter will last a lifetime and is worth the wait" debate.

From: Simon James <SJAMES@feda.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: History; Brass Band -Reply
I'm booked on the Folkworks Summer school in Durham with my Burleigh F but was particularly attracted to the course because of the opportunity to play with other instruments (not just other NSP) which I think I need generally at this stage of my playing - timing, listening etc.
Of course the organisers now know about the issue and will try to accommodate me in terms of the instrumental band 'mix' that I'm in - but I can already see how difficult ( and potentially frustrating all round) that is likely to be.
The point is that just like playing in different keys or beginning to attempt variation sets, moving to a G chanter is part of a process of musical development on NSP generally and related to the sort of player you aim to be. I suppose in the end it's about finding ways of keeping a certain forward momentum to one's musical development ( ie: keeping the interest) balanced against having the right instruments to develop with (and the patience to wait for them to be made).

From: Dave Singleton <DaveSingleton_Lux@compuserve.com>
Barry, I would say rather it needs a good bright reed and a reasonable chanter, the downside is of course all slight errors are immediately audible !!

From: Geordie Skinhead Lunatic (aka Andrew May)<sam112@york.ac.uk>
Subject: Sessions and G.
Personally I both couldn't agree more, and yet couldn't disagree more, which is why I'm replying!!
As a piper who played F pipes in sessions for some time, I know how frustrating it can be, especially when you know all the tunes being played, but in the wrong key!! To this end I can clearly appreciate the benefit of G chanters as a means of playing in sessions.
What slightly niggled me about Simon's message, though, was the suggestion that G chanters are now a necessary part of the pipe-learning experience. Particularly if you play with other pipers,
There is no need for this to be the case. And the phrase 'moving to a G chanter' somehow suggests moving from an F chanter, does it not? It strikes me that a competent F chanter player would take at most a week to be away playing a G chanter, providing they didn't have sausage fingers like me, and this to me doesn't constitute a major advance in the learning process.
Sure, the consequent playing with others will be valuable, but what I'm trying to get at is the thought of G chanters being a step up from an F. I'm sorry, Simon, if this isn't what you meant at all, but I felt like making the point anyway.
Maybe I'll just go and hide myself away playing ever-so-slightly flat of F#, left behind by the revolution!!

From: Simon James <SJAMES@feda.ac.uk>
Subject: Sessions and G. -Reply
I don't think G chanters are a step up in playing from F chanters - but a means to play NSP music with a wider range of musicians than with an F set. What I was trying to say was that that broader experience should have a consequent positive effect on ones (more restricted) F set playing in the long run.
The real issue for me at the moment is getting my hands on playing enough (any) G sets at all to discover their joys and frustrations - let alone all my pompous stuff about developing musically through playing along with other instruments!!